Currently, fighters who deal a lot of damage (like Goku SSJ5) fill their SP gauge faster than weaker fighters (like Saibaman).
After playing for a while, I think that’s completely unjustified : it makes the strong fighters way too overpowered, even though they already are because of the stupid power level numbers.
So I’m thinking of making the SP gauge fill at the same rate for every fighter.
Something like:
The numbers need testing, but you get the idea.
What do you think about that?
I think it's a great idea, I think it would make the game more fun!
estoy totalmente de acuerdo, ésta nivelacion hará que los combates sean mucho más entretenidos, yendo más al lado de la habilidad del jugador y no del poder de personaje.
Ahora una cuestión: Si inyectó más energía al Ki Wave ¿Conseguiré más puntos?
Si inyectó más energía al Ki Wave ¿Conseguiré más puntos?
Very good question. I tried it, and I ended up with the same problem as before: fighters with fast KI or fill Ki powers fill their SP gauge way too quickly. So I went with the simplest solution possible instead:
Any damage fills the SP gauge by 5 points (this value can be adjusted), meaning every fighter needs to land 10 hits to get a special. I also disabled the small bonus that hurt fighters used to get for filling their SP.
It’s simple and I like it 😁
It is playable in the beta and needs testing.
I've tested this, and personally, I'm not a fan.
The issue with everything filling the exact same amount of the gauge is that it really encourages otherwise useless strategies, and discourages core mechanics. Once your opponent goes down, why ever both firing a fully-charged energy beam? Instead, just spam a bunch of tiny energy bullets that do barely any damage, and it'll build up your special meter extremely quickly, letting you launch an attack afterwards.
If you want all of the characters to gain special meter at the same rate, but still be based off of how much damage you do, you could probably do some calculations using their actual stats. Like, find out how much damage one character does relative to their opponent, and apply that to the value of the special meter being gained. Or, each time damage is dealt, have a separate background calculation that applies damage as if both fighters had the exact same stats, and use the output of that to fill the special meter.
I think it would function best the way it used to, with more damaging attacks filling up the special meter more (more charged energy beam = more special meter gained), but still fill at the same rate for characters with 10 strength/speed/spirit or 1 strength/speed/spirit.
Thanks, Cairns, for taking the time to test it and write such a constructive criticism 😉
why ever both firing a fully-charged energy beam?
The purpose of the game is to beat the opponent, not to fill the SP gauge, so that isn’t really a problem for me. But I do see your point.
you could probably do some calculations using their actual stats
If by “stats” you mean power level (force, speed, energy), that’s exactly what I was using before, and what I want to avoid. You don’t want Omega Shenron to fill his SP gauge with just ten punches while a Saibaman needs twenty to do the same.
As for ki attacks, I could base SP gain on the amount of ki used. That would require a bigger code change, though, since fireballs currently only have a power value that’s derived from the ki amount and stats (the thing I want to avoid).
So I’d need to pass the raw ki value into the fireball…
or maybe go even simpler: one full bar of ki = one SP “point” (by “one,” I mean a value).
For example:
Then we can playtest to decide if one point should equal 1, 2, or more.
Is that better?
If by “stats” you mean power level (force, speed, energy), that’s exactly what I was using before, and what I want to avoid. You don’t want Omega Shenron to fill his SP gauge with just ten punches while a Saibaman needs twenty to do the same.
Right, maybe I wasn't clear, lol. I meant it as in, REDUCE the amount that the special gauge is filled by depending on if they have higher stats. I assumed you were taking the amount of damage done as the value to fill the gauge, so I was suggesting that you would've taken that value and made it smaller by whatever amount the higher stats multiply it by.
So with your example, Omega Shenron and Saibaman would both gain 10 SP from 10 punches. If Omega Shenron fired a beam charged with 2 ki bars, he would do a lot of damage, so he'd gain a ton of SP, not just a single point like a punch. Then if the Saibaman fired a beam charged with 3 ki bars, he would gain more SP, even if he did less damage because he has lower stats.
So like, the SP gauge should still fill dynamically based on how strong the attack is, so a charged beam should fill the SP gauge way more than a single bullet or punch. But the calculations should assume that both fighters have the exact same stats, so they gain SP at the same rate regardless of how much extra damage they're doing because of their higher stats.
That’s a very thorough explanation, and I see what you mean, but I think that kind of background calculation is overcomplicating things for what it brings to the table 😅
The goal is really just to ignore power levels altogether and make SP gain predictable and fair for everyone, not to simulate equal damage behind the scenes. I prefer to keep it simple and easily tweakable, so we can test it quickly and adjust the numbers instead of juggling extra math layers.
Here's what I did, knowing that one bar of SP is 100 points :
Attacks that deals damages (no protection):
Ki that deals damages (no protection):
Mini-Events:
All those numbers can be tweaked. This needs testing in order to balance everything.
And right now, Special attacks doesn't count to fill the SP gauge, but we can modify that, as it was meant to work with the previous system.
Hi ! I have a proposition to fill the SP bar faster.
Attacks that deals damages (no protection):
Ki that deals damages (no protection):
Mini-Events:
After a lot of playing, I can say that throwing a fully charged ki wave should fill one SP gauge, and maybe a bit more.
Starting from that 'cool rule' we'll get something like :
Or maybe simply Ki / 5. I'm going to start with that. We'll adjust the rest starting from that.
Edit:
After some testings, maybe even 4 instead of 5. That way, we clearly see the SP gauge filling. Otherwise, we pass from 0 to 100 and the gauge (= 1 SP) and the gauge hasn't visually moved.
I pushed a new beta with ceil(Ki / 4) to fill the SP gauge.
Since the minimum amount of Ki required to throw a Ki blast is 2, this gives an SP bonus ranging from 1 to 125.
Now we can discuss how much SP to award for punches, dashes, and rush attacks.
Speaking of rush attacks, they’re special moves, just like the Spirit Ball. But now that the SP gauge fills more evenly across all fighters, I’ll have no problem filling the SP gauge using a special attack (which wasn’t the case before).
What do you guys think?
No response 🤨...
So after a few fights, I'm going to put those numbers for the basic attacks:
Punch = 4 ➡️ 25 punches to fill one SP bar
Dash = 10 ➡️ 10 dashes to fill one SP bar
I have deactivated the SP fill with rush attacks. This needs to be discussed (see post just above ☝️)
I saw the banner asking for feedback. To be honest, I was avoiding giving feedback because I thought my opinion would upset or annoy you.
The way things are currently, are... good. I think the SP fills up at a good rate. When it was first redone, it filled up far too slow, to the point where most 1v1's never got to use any special attacks even when the characters had the maximum amount of HP. Now, it's a lot faster, but not too fast. I like that the amount of KI used in an attack dynamically affects the amount of SP gained, since when it was first redone, a minimally-charged KI bullet gave the same SP as a highly-charged KI bullet. I don't think special attacks should fill the SP gauge, that just doesn't make sense to me since those attacks ARE the SP gauge being spent. Melee clashes and beam clashes still give the minimum amount of SP, that needs to be adjusted since they generally result in much more damage than a single hit.
So currently, things are fine, and the clash mechanics just need to be adjusted for the new SP system.
However, I still honestly think the new system is way less intuitive than the old system.
Before the SP gauge was changed, SP filled up dynamically based on how much damage was done. It made sense just by looking at it, you saw how much every different type of melee or ranged attack depleted the opponents HP bar, and you got some consistent return of SP as a result. Now, things feel unequal. I just tested, and 4 punches, 2 dashes, or one nearly-fully-charged KI bullet all deal almost the exact same amount of damage, but they give increasingly more SP. Meanwhile, a single-bar KI beam does way more damage than all of those, but gives less SP than a weaker KI bullet. This could be argued to add more strategy to the game, and I understand that hard-coding the values is easier than doing calculations. But in my opinion, the current system feels inconsistent during fights, and less inherently easy to understand.
Plus, I liked the old mechanic of filling up the SP gauge slightly by taking damage. It created a dynamic where if one player was winning easily, then the other player still has almost no change to use a special attack since their SP is filling so slow, like the new system. But, if the fight is more even with both players doing damage, then the SP gauge fills up quicker on both sides, since there's two different sources filling it. This was helpful to let more special attacks happen on fights with lower-HP characters. With the new system, I almost never see a special attack unless the fighters both had 3 HP bars at least. I wanted to try getting a cinematic finish on the "Trunks VS Mecha Frieza" story mode fight (a beam VS Supernova clash), and because they only had 2 HP bars each, I had to stand there and let Frieza beat me up to near-death just to get him to launch a Supernova.
That was long 😅
I was avoiding giving feedback because I thought my opinion would upset or annoy you.
Everyone with access to the beta has the message. And it is not annoying me the least. I prefer to discuss game tweaks than handling noobs dropping a stupid "daima when" in the chat.
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Melee clashes and beam clashes still give the minimum amount of SP
Yep. I forgot about those. Let's start with the sum of the two attacks :
ceil((fighter1.Ki + fighter2.Ki) / 4)
This will fill the SP from 50 to 250.
We'll see while playing if this needs adjustments with a final multiplier (x0.8, x1.3, x2 ...)
As for the close combat, let's start with 50 and see how it feels while playing.
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I still honestly think the new system is way less intuitive than the old system.
I will argue against with a short explanation using two fighters. Let's simplify the stats to one number and fuse physical and ki attacks for the sake of the simplicity of the explanation. A weak with stats of 1 against a strong with 10.
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SP filled up dynamically based on how much damage was done.
This is exactly why I am changing the system. The strong fighter is way too strong because the weak takes 10x much longer to fill his SP:
Only the strong fighter fills his SP when landing attacks on the opponent. That's why I added a little bonus for the weak fighter to fill it too while taking damages. But the gape is too wide: only the strong fires special.
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While this looks fair, regarding the damages, it is overly complicated: the weak fighter will fill his SP gauge rapidly against a strong fighter. But if the strong team switch to a weak one, the SP will suddenly fill 10x slower for the exact same attack.
So it's the same problem as the old system, but inverted. Only the weak will fire specials, when battling against a strong.
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Both fighters have the same chances to fill their SP when landing attacks on the opponent. The amount of special attacks is the same for both fighters.
In the end, firing a special doesn't mean you'll land it. So I want both fighters to fire more specials during the battle.
Not only the strong one blasting spirit balls and leaving no chances to the weak.
Not only the weak one having some kind of bonus against a strong one.
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Now, things feel unequal. I just tested, and 4 punches, 2 dashes, or one nearly-fully-charged KI bullet all deal almost the exact same amount of damage, but they give increasingly more SP.
I don't understand what you mean. The SP gained by the weak and the strong is the exact same for both fighters.
Now if you are talking about the amount of SP one gain with a punch or a dash, when compared to a ki attack, those can be tweaked. Here are the actual numbers:
Plus, I liked the old mechanic of filling up the SP gauge slightly by taking damage.
We can add that again afterward. It's just a little bonus that has nothing to do with the actual tweaks 😉
I see. I understand your reasoning to switch the SP system to hardcoded values. Thank you for explaining it, it makes sense now. However, in regards to my other complaint, I think maybe I wasn't explaining myself well enough. Sorry if this is also a long comment.
I'll re-explain what I mean by this. Basically, for the purposes of this discussion, take the character stats completely out of the equation. They're completely irrelevant. When I tested this, I used the same characters every single time, with the exact same stats.
Anyway. What I was trying to explain was, when I punched a character 4 times, it did X amount of damage, and gave me Y amount of SP in exchange for that damage. When I dashed-attacked twice, it also did X amount of damage, however, it filled up the SP gauge more, like Y*1.2 or something. And when I launched some KI bullets and ended up dealing X damage with them, it filled up the SP gauge even more, like Y*1.5 or something. And when I fired an energy beam charged with one full bar of KI, it did a lot of damage, like X*2, but returned a relatively small amount of SP, like maybe Y*1.1 or something. In short, the various methods of attack give different amounts of SP relative to the amount of damage they do.
At least in my perspective, when playing a game, there's subconscious expectations that form. I attack the opponent and do a certain amount of damage, and watch the SP gauge fill up at a certain speed. Then I attack with a different method and do damage, only to find that the SP gauge filled faster or slower than I anticipated, based off of my previous experience. This is what I mean by "intuitive". In a fast-paced fighting game, there's just certain elements that feel like they should stay consistent.
Basically, I think that the various rates should be balanced so that regardless of the WAY you deal damage, the amount of SP that gets returned is always the same relative to the total damage done.
For example, if a dash does twice as much damage as a punch, and a punch fills the SP gauge by 4, then the Dash should fill the gauge by 8 instead of 10. Or maybe the punch should fill the gauge by 5 instead of 4. Either way, the end result is that doing the same amount of damage against an opponent ends up with the same amount of SP being gained, regardless of the way you dealt it. It just feels super weird currently, that you gain like, twice as much SP gain from a KI bullet with 99 charge, than a KI beam with 100 charge, despite the KI beam doing way more damage.
EDIT: Adding a screenshot just to make my example clear. The first image is damage done with punches, the second image is damage done with KI bullets. It's the same amount of damage, but the KI bullets fill up the SP gauge way faster. This is what feels unintuitive to me. I think the SP gauge should be consistent between all forms of damage.
Sorry if this whole explanation was very long-winded, I tend to type and explain myself more than necessary, lol.
The first image is damage done with punches, the second image is damage done with KI bullets. It's the same amount of damage, but the KI bullets fill up the SP gauge way faster. This is what feels unintuitive to me. I think the SP gauge should be consistent between all forms of damage.
Ok. That is an interesting way to help to balance the numbers. That is really helpful. Then the amount of SP gained with a punch must be a bit higher. Maybe 5 instead of 4. I'm going to try ☺️
Edit:
I got the exact same damages with 4 punches and little ki blasts using an SP punch value of 8.
The beta is already pushed online for testing. Now, to the dash attack.
Edit 2:
This isn't going to be easy to balance like this, because of the difference of Ki poured into a Ki blast, that changes the amount of SP gained... So I'm going to make a spreadsheet instead, to get the exact numbers.
All right, I have a working spreadsheet to work with. But first of all, we need to decide the amount of SP one basic fighter (not counting his stats) can gain by dealing 100 HP damages (one full bar) to his opponent.
I personally think that, by dealing 100 HP damages, the fighter should gain 150 to 200 SP. That way, specials can be launched even during short fights where HP bars starts low.
What do you think?
personalmente no estoy encontrando muchas observaciones con el sistema actual (el de la beta actual), pero en caso de una batalla corta sí creo que poner más restricciones sobre los SP hacen a las batallas menos satisfactorias. mi veredicto es que los valores de esta beta están bien🫠
Hola!
En el cuerpo a cuerpo, sentí que la obtención de puntos era perfecta, muy buen trabajo allí. 😉
Sin embargo, note que al ganar un choque de poderes es muy poco lo que se llena la barra.
Desconozco si fue hecho a propósito o es un error, si es la primera, no estoy deacuerdo, ya que el esfuerzo que se usa para ganar uno debería ser recompensado. O bueno, así lo veo yo. 😅